← All threads

Why does r/codingbootcamp exist?

10 of Michael's comments in this thread · View thread on Reddit ↗

u/GoodnightLondon wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

It means accept the fact that the sub is going to be a reflection of the market. There's no reason to shut it down until the market improves. People are getting honest feedback here; the subreddit shouldn't exist just to hype up boot camps, and shutting it down would remove an

u/michaelnovati replied ·
I think at a minimum, the sub needs a little more explicit rules and structure so the mods can take more action within the rules. I expect most content to be negative because of the market, and agree with that, but there is a difference between people sharing Reddit has launched a ton of new tools in recent months, both automated and configuration based to help moderators. The automated ones remove a ton of spammy and likely bad actor content daily. We haven't touched the other ones yet though. For example, when adding flair to posts to tag the type of post and having prompts and guiding questions if you choose those flairs. If someone tags something as a review, we can prompt with questions we suggest they answer to try to turn raw complaint posts into constructive negative feedback.

u/jcasimir wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

This is an interesting point actually. If the space for beginners and such is elsewhere, then are we saying this sub is like the yelp for bootcamps? We're talking about what bootcamps to go to or avoid, but not really about the work that one does in the bootcamp and afterwards? M

u/michaelnovati replied ·
also replying to u/GoodnightLondon I'm seeing the market fork a bit. I'll try to make a diagram to explain my views: Appr = apprenticeships/internships/pathways, etc... **FAANG CANONICAL LEVELLING SYSTEM** 2018 2020 2022 2024 2026 AI-Adjacent ➡️ ⬆️ (lower than entry level "SWE" but good jobs) Appr. ➡️ ⬆️ ➡️ ⬇️ ⏹️ Junior ⬆️ ⬆️ ⬆️ ⬇️ ⏹️ (top tier CS grads only) Mid ➡️ ⬆️ ➡️ ➡️ ⬆️ Senior+ ➡️ ➡️ ➡️ ➡️ ⬆️ So I basically see the entry to SWE but chocked off entirely - other than CS grads from top schools. BUT I see this idea of "prompt engineers", "AI-training engineers", "people building simple things with AI tools that don't involve actual CODE". **Bootcamps will be positioned to fill the need of those roles, the shopify developer of today might become the prompt engineer of tomorrow and bootcamps might be ideal to fill those roles.** The problem right now is it's the chocking year and bootcamps are dying, like Rithm for example. The best bet for survival is lay most people off, pause/shutdown, turtle up and rebuild and get ready for 2026 AI-adjacent world (e.g. Bloomtech strategy) The next best bet is shrink down hard and run a lean and mean 2-3 person company with 20 person cohort. (e.g. Launch School) The worst thing you can do delude yourself into think you go upmarket and can fill those Mid Senior roles and keep on chugging, but are actually producing Apprentichip and Junior engineers that have no jobs to go to. Unfortunately all of this is **SPECULATION** and bootcamps have to make a call on what they do NOW.... very stressful times.

u/Zestyclose-Level1871 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

>***"The conclusion is that's dreary around here..."*** Why even bother posting on here? Gotta love those complainers who complain about the complainers.--wait.... Will Sentance, is that you??

u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I'm talking to Jeff (OP) tomorrow. I haven't talked much with him before (both public and private), but this is what normal people do to talk about ideas and get to know each other. I have no idea if we agree or disagree and it doesn't matter. We definitely don't 100% agree on everything but we can talk and respect each other. Everyone has a story and journey that can at worst - teach you something, and at best - inspire you. I'm sure there are reasons Will Sentance and/or Codesmith behave the way they to criticism. There are many personality disorders outside of one's control that could explain that, amongst other things. At best there's an inspiring story and at worst something to learn from, but shutting someone down (unless you feel your personal safety is immediately at risk) is the equivalent of throwing away that learning opportunity and you might even be throwing aware an inspiring lucky ticket.

u/s4074433 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I like when the forum matures and evolves into something with the contribution from community members. As a moderator on another platform, it is frustrating when you don't have the same kind of support from the community to help reach greater potential. How about some flairs

u/michaelnovati replied ·
+1 to flairs (w/ harsh consequences for lying or misleading through flairs) -1 to this isn't a wiki, Quora is a good place to surface collective wisdom.

u/zanyzinc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

As a long time lurker, I had a theory that Michael Novati was secretly a CodeSmith affiliate with the amount of free air time he gives them. He must have sent a couple million $ worth of business their way. '*Their outcomes look so good on paper it can't be real! Seriously the ou

u/michaelnovati replied ·
cc Codesmith. I don't think they would agree with that :)

u/CucumberCatcher wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Well I think hundreds of thousands is a stretch, given the survey you’re referencing was only 500 people. We also don’t know the backgrounds of the folks in the survey, and these types of surveys typically invite people who were successful and want to brag. In any case I’m sure

u/michaelnovati replied ·
Bootcamp grads are getting jobs but the way I frame it is that they are getting jobs through non-reproducible paths. Meaning that a bootcamp can't systematically place people at scale, and each placement is a unique path leveraging anything from past background, adjacent work, friends, network, etc... that won't necessarily work for many others. So bootcamps have a place, they just are fundamentally limited in how large they can be. Launch School is doing ok, staying small and dedicated tons of effort to each placement.

u/Zealousideal_Fee4626 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

You have to consider that a CS grad has put in anywhere between 1800 and 3600 hours attending lectures, studying, completing programming exercises etc. Not to mention they have a big advantage when it comes to landing an internship which will give them actual work experience prio

u/michaelnovati replied ·
Internships are key. Imagine being a bootcamp grad with a tiny 3 week project and competing with someone who did 3 months at Meta, 3 months at Google, and 3 months at Apple (which the top tier CS grads have on their resumes)... it's irrational to hire the bootcamp grad even if you have a gut feeling about their potential and the bootcamp grad will long term be a higher performer. Companies aren't gambling, they are trying to make rational scaling decisions.

u/zanyzinc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

Agree with this. Bootcamps need to be much more focused on 1:1 coaching and mentorship to squeeze every ounce of what's special and marketable about someone into their job search.

u/michaelnovati replied ·
Yeah, unfortunately even then, the market is just nor working for those people. A personal trainer might get you into shape, but there are physical limitations they can't overcome within their control. Our mentorship product is only for people with a couple of years of SWE industry work experience and we're seeing it very challenging even for people who already have a year of experience to get interviews right now. I can only imagine how much harder it is for bootcamp grads.

u/zanyzinc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

I'll see you in a couple years. ;) Who do you mean by "those people"? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it kinda sounds like you don't think bootcamps have a place in today's market. Shouldn't exist? Which... like... you run the sub about bootcamps. Should an ath

u/michaelnovati replied ·
sorry, those people = bootcamp grads who receive targeted personalized 1-1 advice/strategy re: bootcamps - I think bootcamps should exist! I think two models can work right now: 1. small school, a couple of employees, 20 person cohorts, extended projects/support/help and dedicated effort for each student to help them find something (beyond just mentorship above) 2. school aiming to fill non-software jobs, like "ai prompt engineers", that can adapt to the demand of these "future blue collar jobs" much faster than other forms of education and get people into those jobs quicker. this is competitive with certificate programs more than schools, but a bootcamp could be the more flexible, exciting, intense pathway as opposed to a more boring certificate.

u/zanyzinc wrote (the comment Michael replied to):

LOL yesssss. I'm starting a petition to have Michael release his tax records. I bet he gets a gift card every time he mentions CS.

u/michaelnovati replied · DELETED · archived copy
Oh I have one!!!! The dozen of accounts that show up out of nowhere and attack me and calling Formation a Codesmith competitor are all the same person... and it's actually my wife trying create fake publicity for Formation (For lawyers and reddit admins - this is a joke following the jokes above)