I generally agree. To make things worse in general Im seeing bootcamp grads from a few years ago getting laid off and having a hard time getting new jobs as well and compounding the negative sentiment.
Bootcamps can work for some people but successes are non-reproducible edge cases and not something you can look forward to as a typical person reading this. Any bootcamp promising generally good outcomes to any person walking off the street should be avoided.
Also agree it's not going to change any time soon. Interest rates dropping a tiny bit isn't going to open the floodgates.
We're seeing big tech rewarded to efficiency and hitting all time highs. Efficiency means hiring seasoned senior engineers, period.
There's no room to hire a bootcamp grad and nurture them for 3 years to maybe get to the same spot.
Finally, DEI is one of the big reasons companies even cared about bootcamps. They bring a more diverse top of funnel to the company that other sources. DEI is being cut left right and center and certain politicians are threatening more action to make gray area DEI efforts strictly illegal. I don't think anything will change until we'll after the election. Things might get way worse too depending on who wins.
It's not one, two, three things against bootcamps.... it's everything.
Unless you have hiring partnerships in specific industries that you are training people for (like apprenticeships) then I would seriously consider my future.
u/Useful-Land-7848 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I hold MS Petroleum Engineering and also BS Industrial Engineering. Do I still need another degree such as CS to get into SWE or just a bootcamp with very strong SWE skills after that is enough to "try" to find my first job as SWE (Front-End, Back-End, Developer or any similar)?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
If you have some kind of programming-adjacent experience then a bootcamp could possibly work. Feel free to DM more personal details like your location, what kind of job you are looking for, your work history and experience and how much technology you've done, if your current job has any pathway to switch to programming or a more programming related role, etc...
u/Useful-Land-7848 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
My location is Colorado Springs, Colorado (military town). My work history: last 2 years took a career break from my job so I earned some certification (Meta/Coursera Introduction to Front-End Dev and Back-End Dev). I did some Udemys: Javascript, CSS, HTLM, React, Python, Git
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I'll message you on LI
u/duneLover29 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Which future president is better for us and why
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I'm not qualified to answer but you can read a a bit about the changing tides here: [https://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/2024/03/courts-issue-three-significant-dei-decisions](https://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/2024/03/courts-issue-three-significant-dei-decisions)
u/feelfool wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
In my opinion we are in a dire situation.
People will say stop gatekeeping or doom posting, but the reality of the situation is not good.
We have too many laid off skilled workers, too many incoming new grads, too many immigrant workers, and companies are only cutting jobs.
Th
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah I feel the gatekeeping one a lot. I've been called a gatekeeper for highlighting the facts I hear from top companies all the time. Individual bootcamp grads can still make it if they are an exception, but the typical bootcamp grad first - doesn't meet the hiring bar as often, and second - needs so much more handholding and nurturing to end up where a Stanford CS grad is, it's just not work it economically - the company will pay more to recruiter and woo over Stanford CS grads instead.
u/Own-Pickle-8464 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I wonder how these companies are going to fare in a few years when they realize they sold their future prosperity for present efficiency? How can you have a successful company - or leadership - without nurturing new talent?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
They are hiring top tier CS grads, like MIT, Stanford etc... and nurturing them
u/Own-Pickle-8464 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
For sure, but are there enough grads from those schools to meet the demand? I can’t speak on the numbers, but I feel there are a lot of local companies or smaller businesses that can’t “afford” those grads. Is there opportunity in that angle?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I think the post COVID boom was a good rush. Zero interest and everything moving online. Mavis Tires had to get digital fast!
But these businesses realized that paying people like $150K people who came from a bootcamp and didn't have much work experience, let a trail of destruction behind them and didn't produce real dollar value.
I don't think they will return to that state in the future.
Instead, the Googles and Facebooks are taking over and the big are getting bigger, and building AI assisted tools for local companies to use to get way more done than hiring someone from a bootcamp for $150K.
It's not that simple and even if all of this was how things remain, DEI would be a reason for these big companies to run apprenticeships and non-traditional internships But even those avenues are being attacked.
Happy to revisit in three years when AI settles. It's going to create a ton of new jobs, but they will be different jobs. I don't think bootcamps in their current forms will be there though. Maybe those "pausing indefinitely" are smart to buy time. And those dillisional will crash before then.
u/devdevdevelop wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I have a degree in chem eng but also did a BootCamp, managed to get into a FAANG adjacent company in a non development role, I can't code super well so I'm going to spend the next few months and pump out a solid full stack project and a passion project and chance it. I'm not in t
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Have you considered a masters degree while you work? FAANG adjacent might pay for school
u/devdevdevelop wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I got let go a while ago, I feel like a masters degree will be a lot of learning theory whereas I want practical skills now so I can be ready to apply in a couple of months. I've never failed at something I 100% went for so I am certain I will succeed. All it takes is one person
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I mean you should be looking into bootcamps too, just be extremely thorough in finding the right one for you. Don't listen to any marketing or any stats, and dig deep, find the place that feels authentic and you trust that they will be fighting alongside you to get a job, and not just talking a good talk.
u/Background-Rub-3017 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
So you mean DEI forces companies to hire under-qualified candidates?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
No not at all. It's much more complicated than that.
So take Meta for example. In the early days, they found graduates from Stanford, Harvard, Berkeley, Waterloo, UW, Brown, etc... who tended to perform best a couple years later, so they focused on hiring from those schools. Those graduates tended to set hiring requirements that people from those schools would then meet, kind of like a cycle.
DEI hiring is about casting a wider net from the sources you typically have been considering, to get more diverse backgrounds. I'm not talking about protected classes or minorities, just diverse from what the company was used to hiring.
A company should be able to hire anyone they legally want to hire, and DEI efforts are about challenge historical hiring norms so bring in people that might take the company to a higher maximum instead of s local maximum.
u/scahote wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Spoken like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about! Typical reddit losers who lie to feel good about themselves.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Here are my LinkedIns and GitHub:
[https://github.com/mnovati:](https://github.com/mnovati:) "5,826 contributions in the last year"
[https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelnovati/](https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelnovati/)
People can judge for themselves. What are your qualifications for calling me a "reddit loser who lie" and what is your rationale?
u/scahote wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Will also be sending a message to your manager about your misconduct. Thank you for giving me your personal info!
u/michaelnovatireplied·
My Reddit username is my real name. I'm also a moderator of this sub. Who the fudge are you and can you try to be a bit nicer? I'm happy to talk about whatever point you are trying to make in a nicer way.
u/Conscious-Work-183 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
He’s an AI bot and he’s trying to make you nervous.