IMO, I think this is why a number of bootcamps have shut down, shrunk, re-org'd, etc...
The inverse isn't true though. People are all individuals, and an individual who is a bootcamp grad might be a special case that is hirable, will have a great career and outperform others.
But their experience doesn't represent most bootcamp grads.
u/bc87 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
That's the problem. The perspective from the other side of the table is that interviewers also don't like conducting interviews as much as candidates don't like going through interviews. When you repeatedly see bootcamp grads performing poorly in interviews, all that does is ince
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Yeah, I remember that a Facebook. If a receruiter sends a candidate to interview that lied about their resume and the engineer figured it out, it was a flip the table thing and made the recruiter look bad and the whole bootcamp look bad.
u/Kadrian6 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Bootcamps are a risky bet, but if you think you’re really good at programming and you enjoy it, go for it. I have interviewed hundreds of devs, with and without CS degrees and I wouldn’t judge someone based on that. It’s all about knowing the basics, best practices, having git re
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I made a comment already but individual people can succeed and it likely doesn't have to do with the bootcamp. Stories of people succeeding and 'changing their lives' are so powerful though they make others - who don't pattern match to any traits of successful grads - think the same might happen to them.
u/TurtlePowerBottom wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
But also, lying on your resume is cool and good. Just be able to hide it and don’t be too obvious. Employers have too have power, and lying to them is fine to get a job
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I support people doing whatever they want on their resumes and I support the companies choosing to respond how they want.
If too many lies and exaggerations get through and have bad on-sites, and companies stop hiring bootcamp grads, then that's the consequence and bootcamps will fail.
If people are actually qualified and it's gatekeeping that's keeping them out, then lying might be an ends justify the means argument.
The problem is that many companies have essentially blocked bootcamps grads and many bootcamps are struggling to stay afloat so it's clear where the market is.
When bootcamps had a higher bar and produced higer potential talent and companies had too many slots to fill, bootcamp grads were barely able to get a foot in the door and it was still a challenge.
u/LazyMeringue1973 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
What would be your advice to newbie looking to get a career in SWE?
u/michaelnovatireplied·
It really depends on your background. Feel free to message me more details.
For a small number of people, a bootcamp is a good choice, for others a post-bacc, others a whole degree, others get a tangential job and pivot on the job, others get a masters.
u/LazyMeringue1973 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
"Im dead honest that the reason we got the swe jobs were mainly due to diversity metrics."
Interesting. Didn't realize that was happening.
u/michaelnovatireplied·
So it's illegal to discriminate based on backgrounds in hiring decisions, so what a lot of companies do to try to increase diversity is to just cast a wider net to a more diverse set of sources, rather than just sourcing from what's been working for them (e.g. Stanford).
As a result companies will try to source from bootcamps as an effort to cast a wider net. But ultimately if the people don't meet the bar during a fair and calibrated interview process, nothing about their background can legally make up for that.
One might argue that people from a bootcamp background have a ton of potential but lack the skills to qualify for entry level jobs at top companies, so some companies have pathways like apprenticeships and we see a lot of apprenticeships being heavily marketing to bootcamp grads (and other non-traditional sources).
But yeah, DEI stuff is a gray area (as we've seen with some of the recent challenges to it in Florida and elsewhere) and with DEI employees being impacted heavily in layoffs, its' like a one two punch about these efforts being invested in right now.
u/g8rojas wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
# Top Tier CS Grads vs Bootcamps
First, the fact there is even an attempt to compare these two means that the “top tier” is not the lofty position one would have you think.
Next, a superior student for a bootcamp is just like a superior student for a top tier school. Neither ca
u/michaelnovatireplied·
I think these arguments highlight the issues that come from lack of diversity in tech and why that's a big problem to solve.
But that doesn't change the argument that if Google/Meta/Cisco/etc... have tends of thousands of engineers... sophisticated calibration process to assess their performance relative to each other on metrics that are important to the businesses success... and bootcamp grads initially perform significantly worse than new grads from top CS schools.
I know a number of large companies that have tried and tried to hire bootcamp grads. When I bring it up to friends it's like 'omg no' type reaction followed by a story of how it burned them in the past that always unique to that person.
It's not A vs B and it's not going to be solved if both sides attack each other.
Bootcamp grads aren't initially as good. Accept that fact. Then figure out how to build pathways for bootcamp grads to rampup and grow to catch up.
For all we know, bootcamp grads might perform better 2 years from now than CS grads, but we'll never know because companies are expecting them to be equal on day one, and their data is telling them they aren't.
u/Building-Soft wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Bootcamp grad here. I was nominated employee of the year at the company I am still a part of after 18 years and gotten promotions there. You sound jaded, bitter, and afraid. I'm gonna go back for another bootcamp. Can't stop won't stop! My life has been and will always be in God'
u/michaelnovatireplied·
See my comment about why one off personal anecdotes, while entirely valid, don't counter the large scale data trend and they make people who shouldn't go into bootcamps have hope it will work for them.
If we could identify all the people like you and get them into bootcamps, the world would be a better place.
u/g8rojas wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Sir, you are entitled to your opinion as am I. I will not "Accept that fact" because it is **not a fact**.
It is not factual to say bootcamp grads are initially worse than CS grads.
If google, meta and those pretty names have an opinion that is based on their experience that i
u/michaelnovatireplied·
100% agree we are both entitled to opinions and I'm glad we label them as such.
I worked at Meta from 2009 to 2017 and bootcamps came on the scene in 2012. So I worked before, during, and after they settled down a bit.
I can't give facts because I'm not allowed to reveal confidential information about Meta, even though I left.
So you're right that I can only state an opinion. My opinion is based on my observations there working with recruiting, mentoring, hiring, interviewing over 400 people.
Those are very strong credentials but they are super limited to just Meta, during a period of time, and then my personal lens at Meta, and they are not facts.
Unless you have facts, maybe clarify at least what experiences are supporting your claims and then let people reading this interpret for themselves where the arguments land however they want.
u/g8rojas wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I have my experience. My experience and your experience do not agree with each other. Why can't this live on its own?
You are asking me to give you facts in the context of it being **the truth** is not appropriate. you and I do not have to compare who is right and wrong. I am c
u/michaelnovatireplied·
Sorry I'm totally happy with you having your own opinion too! I also think there are a ton of problems with CS degrees, both specific one sand CS degrees overall.
I think acknowledging different angles is how we move forward and absolutely respect you presenting your opinion.