u/InTheDarkDancing wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I know this thread title has Michael's PagerDuty going off crazy.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I was notified 8 mins ago while I was in the car yeah, and I'm home now!
From Codesmith to FAANG
23 of Michael's comments in this thread · View thread on Reddit ↗
u/GoodnightLondon wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Brand new account just created today, claiming 230k TC without ever being a SWE before, and obtained a role that CS grads are currently struggling to even get an interview for. Yeah, no, this isn't a shill account and post at all.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I'll run in through several sources and see if it checks out. In my sources personally, I haven't seen FAANG placements from Codesmith for a while, so I'm curious what "recently" means, and what "FAANG" means.
Someone got a job paying 400K at Netflix, that wasn't a SWE role and was in the same field that the person had 8 years of background as a high performer in.
There were one or two Capital One placements that could be 230K TC, but that's not a FAANG company.
u/ElectricJacker89 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Some background, I had been grinding leetcode for awhile but never could really leverage that to a SWE job because I had no experience. Codesmith was the final piece I needed to fill in that gap and land me a job. I started codesmith this year. Really grateful for codesmith becau
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited
Regarding point 2: [https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/18cpq98/analysis\_of\_52\_most\_recent\_codesmith\_offers/](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/18cpq98/analysis_of_52_most_recent_codesmith_offers/)
u/metalreflectslime wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
How do you set up alerts to get notified when a new thread on a specific Subreddit gets posted?
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I have the super aggressive notifs turned on so I'm notified on almost every post in this sub very quickly
u/BackendSpecialist wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Capitol One is paying $230k for entry level SWEs?! If so then I’ll leave my FAANG job for Capitol one lol
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
So Codesmith has like 50/60 or so Capital One placements ranging from Associate to Senior Associate to Senior SWE. Senior SWEs make about 160 to 170K base + a base performance bonus (say 8%) + signing bonus (say 30K) + maybe the perosn is including 6% 401K matching. It could get to 230K for first year TC on the high end yeah, but I could see it getting there.
Entry level FAANG is around 200K right now that I'm seeing and mid level is around 300K I'm seeing, so these "senior" alumni are kind of hitting "mid level"-equivalent Capital One roles.
u/lawschoolredux wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
https://media.tenor.com/D6EcehkBRwgAAAAC/will-smith-allergic.gif Michael right now
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
lol I'm glad I can have some amicable discourse in here.
Codesmith has a number of amazing placements out thousands of Alumni, there are a few dozen at Amazon, a dozen or two at Google, a smaller amount at Meta, a handful at Apple/Netflix.
100 (being very generous/rounding up) canonical FAANG placements out of THOUSANDS is an edge that people should not be using an as example nor should anyone be making decisions off of.
But that doesn't change the fact that a number of incredible people go to Codesmith and do incredibly well in their careers and I both encourage them to go there, support them while they are there, support them after they are there, and that's how it should be, I'm not hear to tear anyone down or bash on their achievements.
u/BackendSpecialist wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Sorry, I’m not very familiar with the inner working of bootcamps. I follow this sub because I’m a dev advocate and interested in what’s going in the market so pardon my ignorance. But how does someone come out of a bootcamp and immediately get a senior SWE position?
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
By lying :(
The people I know from Codesmith basically had to have resumes that showed 4+ years of experience to qualify for "senior" at Capital One and they 'worked with Career Support Engineers' to help make that happen.
There's a tight crew at Capital One and they even help each other out, like one person did a wink wink 'hey how many years of experience do you have' - candidate said 2 - person said - make it 4 to qualify for this role. And somehow they got the job.
Maybe I'm being too negative, because it doesn't come out of thin air. People turn their past jobs into 'engineer-sounding' jobs. Illustrative examples like Auditor -> Technical Analyst. Teacher -> Technical Instructor. Customer Support -> Operations Engineer.
They have a outcomes advisor that one grad said has a "silver tongue" and can make anything sound good who can help with these kinds of things.
u/BackendSpecialist wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Omg lol. I’ve been here feeling bad about trying to stretch my 1.4 years of experience to 2. Wow lol. Are these lies only working at C1? If not, I’m curious about how they’re getting past the background check?!
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
https://youtu.be/SkWYanfkfCY?si=d7jFHlVV0grjKuPN&t=1980
"There's this one guy Eric Kirsten, who has a silver tongue and he will teach you how to say anything. You tell him this is my background, how do I present it to an employer to where it doesn't look like I just decided to switch careers \[\] and he will give you a great way to say it"
u/BackendSpecialist wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
L O L Wow. I cannot believe how blatant it seems. Still. I don’t know how they hold on to these senior positions once they get them. My only reference is FAANG so maybe the senior position here is more intense. But you cannot fake senior for long here. Regardless thank you fo
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I think the last thing you said is the key, I wrote about that before and there are four buckets I've observed and almost all of them it is not the celebratory story, but a grueling first year of stress:
\- get fired, not a lot, but some people do
\- barely get by and leave before getting PIPed or because they are no where near progressing and want a more appropriate role
\- secretly put in nights and weekends to make up for their gaps and get by long enough to hang on
\- other: the jobs aren't really "senior", e.g. consultants at Google via contractors are "Senior Engineer", they are more mid level-ish and there is another set of outcomes there
The key thing with Codesmith is the entry bar is very high and looking for a very specific person - a person who tends to be successful in a lot of situations.
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Been monitoring this post - upvotes went from 0 to 10 in a 3 minute window at 12:50am to 12:53am PST, not suspicious at all.
u/dak78 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I've know through the codesmith grapevine that someone from codesmith recently secured a big faang role and through negotiation got it up above 200k. There have been more than 60+ codesmith grad offers in the past month or so --- one of them falling into this category is not
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
Can you provide there have been 60 offers in the past month because there are doubts of that claim. The CEO and outcomes advisor have been saying that but people who work there and my own independent analysis could not support that claim and we independent came up with a much smaller number, about one per day.
Ask for proof of that number before believing them.
u/Thinkinaboutu wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
To be fair I've seen some salaries in this range from CS grads at other companies that aren't FAANG. For example I know someone took a job at Bloomberg in the mid 200k range, though that was pre-2021. Someone who got a job at Sony in the low 200's this year. I'm sure their are ot
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
Yeah absolutely even 2 people a cohort is like 5% of people and wouldn't surprise me at all that it's that or a bit higher, it's just not remotely representative of the entire experience and people framing this like its a typical case can be extremely misleading. No problem celebrating these placements with appropriate disclaimers.
u/elvient0 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
We’re including 401k match in TC now?
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I personally don't include benefits and not do standard compensation metrics but some people do
u/loopey33 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Congrats! Also at faang after app academy. Agree being persistent and constant work ethic is definitely key.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This is one of the reasons why I so adamantly believe that people need to get appropriate first jobs out of a boot camp. what that means is different for each person but getting an entry level FAANG job that pays not as high as potentially some other jobs achieved through exaggerating resumes and pushing really hard, can be the path rapidly accelerating your career.
If Codesmith was really the ivy league like grad school for bootcamps they claim to be. they should be striving to place people in incredible entry-level rules that result in them making $600,000 in a few years and instead they are dismissive of those roles and pushing people to these exaggerated mid-level senior looking roles and pushing people to make the highest compensation they possibly can right out of the program.
I think they know that this is pretty much impossible because they can't reliably get people these jobs because people without any experience can't just interview for entry level top tier jobs. Even in the boom times, only a handful of people were getting these jobs and it wasn't reproducible for any given graduate then, so this entire narrative is distorted and I'm really concerned about people going down the wrong path for the wrong reasons when they could be otherwise amazing on a more appropriate path.
I'm soapboxing here because obviously everyone has their own complex life and circumstances and it's easy to talk on Reddit about this stuff and much harder to know one-on-one what the right thing to do is and what the right path is for you.
u/MKing150 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Do you have a degree? I'm also a Codesmith grad and I already had my first role for a year, but I got laid off. I'm having a hard time landing my second role. I also don't have a degree, so I'm worried that might have something to do with it since the market has changed since la
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This is a common problem with the Codesmith approach (not the majority, but it's a common thing to happen) and there's a number of people at career accelerators like Formation, Interview Kickstart, Pathrise, etc... as a result.
The Codesmith approach can really throw off your mental model of the industry because you hustle into roles many people are not ready for or the right fit for, and have a hard time understanding what to do next. It works if you keep the hustle going until you land a solid legit tech job, but it doesn't handle the other cases so well.
This market is making Codesmith grads learn quickly that you are not a mid level or senior engineer at top tier companies. So you get stuck with not getting these interviews, not knowing why, and then failing the mid-level/senior top tier interviews you do get. (This is the pattern I've seen).
With the exaggerations seen in most resumes, your resume might have looked STRONGER right after Codesmith, with years of consecutive experience, and now you have a career gap to overcome and a shorter amount of real experience, compared to how much you listed on your OSP, etc... It's confusing.
Codesmith offers lifetime career support, but career support engineers and instructors are themselves getting help outside for their own career progression and I would consider those options too, but first go back to Codesmith career support and make use of it. You paid for it in your tuition so you might as well get their advice. If you are getting a lot of pats on the back and not being challenged to improve and grow, then seek help outside.
u/dak78 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
The acquaintance I know would know the live data and have no reason to "lie to me". ​ Stalking codesmith students on slack isn't what I'd call a true "analysis"
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I can assure you I have the raw data to back that there have not been 60 placements reported in the past month and I crossed checked my number with people who work there.
If you make incorrect assumptions about my data sources then that's on you for spreading misinformation and people won't trust you on here.
u/-omg- wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
He didn’t get a FAANG senior. That’s entry level TC at Google and Meta in Sillicon Valley.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
This is on the high side but when all said and done with base, signing, base performance, and stock, this is in that range.
But are Google and Meta hiring entry level engineers right now. I asked Meta recruiters and they only have a small number of return interns coming in at E3 right now. There are a number of REng (E4 rotational) starting this week but their pay in non negotiable and fixed (yes - truly non negotiable and it's not 230K, it's right about 200K because the signing bonus is split over 2 years.)
The E4 rotational program requires 2 years of SWE experience and it's firm. We work with their recruiters for that program and they won't take people under 2 YOE so if a Codesmith person with no experience lied, I'll give them a heads up to dive deeper into that. If someone lied to get into that program (OP said they have no experience) they should NOT be posting on Reddit because their job is at risk if this is discovered. That program is a special program within Meta.
Google is also not hiring L3s right now. I know someone who interviewed as an L4 because they have 2-3 YOE and got downgraded to an L3, but I also know people who passed the L3 bar but are waiting on headcount.
u/-omg- wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Google likes to downgrade people. Also Meta E4 is definitely way higher than 200k lmao not sure who is giving you those numbers maybe for data engineers not software engineers. You can see salaries posted last few days they're all in 300k range with 3-4 YOE. [https://www.levels
u/michaelnovati replied ·
I don't appreciate the condescending tone.
You are the one who clearly has no idea what you are talking about if you don't know what the E4 rotational program is. This is not E4 SWE.
u/Worth-Patience-3133 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
From Codesmith to President of the United States
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
In all seriousness, the reason for Codesmith alumni's heavy, anonymous presence on Reddit is becasue people [exaggerate to get jobs](https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/18cpq98/analysis_of_52_most_recent_codesmith_offers/) and if they out themselves on LinkedIn or somewhere else or give more details about who they are, they risk getting "found out" by colleagues and losing those jobs. I talk to my friend at a recent hiring and asked them if they knew a specific Codesmith grad the company just hired a few weeks ago had no experience (obviously friendly and off the books) and they said no idea from the resume or interview. So it's totally in people's interest to not share their success in any way that might reveal who they are, if it's based on stretching the truth.
At Formation, we had someone start at Meta this week and she happily participated in a blog post about her job and how she got it the day she started her job.
I actually believe OP got some kind of very good job, possibly at canonical FAANG, or at least a good job, making a lot money, but we probably won't find out how. Which raises the question... why even post then?
u/dak78 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
I had someone in my cohort secure a role at a faang equivalent company this year, these results aren't super common, but they are also not impossible. This alum got a role at google after codesmith and is still there as a lead: [https://www.codesmith.io/blog/alumni-qa-with-dan
u/michaelnovati replied ·
Daniel King was not a SWE at Google, he started as a Solutions Engineer.
u/ElectricJacker89 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Lots of mixed responses. I wanted to stay anonymous so I posted this on a new account but I am scared too share anymore information because there are some people who are actively stalking me and that makes me uncomfortable. Feel free to DM me if you have any specific questions as
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
I love the last paragraph you wrote and fully agree with that.
Anyways, I'm sorry you feel attacked on this post, I don't agree with the tone of people calling you a liar or a paid ad and wish this was a much more useful discussion about how on earth you were the one of the only people out of hundreds right now to get a FAANG job post Codesmith because I'm sure you have a lot interesting things to say about your unique journey.
u/dak78 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Really Michael? Please explain why the fellows from formation I happened to come across on Linkedin the other day -- who are still jobless and looking for work --- why almost every one of them have work experience that are dubious contract roles that have clearly ended, but 1.5
u/michaelnovati replied · · edited ★ FEATURED
I appreciate your challenges and it gives me a chance to explain how things work instead of one offs and generalizations.
1. Just like Codesmith we give guidance on Formation and you can see that below, copy pasted from our notes (I think it can be improved but that's as of 12/7/2023) and I don't think this is misrepresenting in any way what Formation is or tricking anyone into thinking it is something else.
2. Adults are adults, we are not responsible for anyone's LinkedIns just like Codesmith isn't responsible for them. The reason I did my post was because it was a pattern of 92% of recent Codesmith placements.
3. If someone said that 92% of Formation placements were listing Formation as a fake job and people were all not following our advice and going rogue by presenting Formation some kind of full time software engineer job experience, and that was the reason they were getting jobs I would call an emergency and shut down Formation until that behavior was resolved and we figure out how that happened.
4. You have no idea who goes to Formation and most people don't list their information publicly because the vast majority of people currently have jobs and are working and it's not something that shows up on resumes. I would say 10% of people are public about doing Formation and they tend to be the people with the least experience.
\`\`\`
Recommended if you have no relevant work experience, optional but not recommend, if you have SWE experience.
\* Add Formation as the most recent experience block or where you feel comfortable putting it
\* Add title at Formation as “Software Engineering Fellow”
\* Specify Formation location as remote
\* Add Formation date as start date to current or last month
\* e.g. Oct 2020 – Present
\* For the bullets, aim for 3-4
\* Below are some example bullet points you can use:
\* Selected for highly-competitive Fellowship for personalized mentorship from top-tier software engineers.
\* Completed intensive practice over X months to master computer science fundamentals through coding exercises through independent study, pair programming, and small mentor-led groups.
\* Fixed bugs and implemented new production-ready features in a large code base including \[example a, example b, example c IF WORKED ON RECUR\]
\* Studied system design fundamentals in small groups led by senior engineers from top companies, comparing and contrasting concepts in modern web-based applications.
\* Awarded the weekly Rising Tide distinction X times as a result of peers nominating the Fellow who has been most helpful in their technical learning journey.
\* Hosted weekly working sessions for a 5-person peer group to ensure accountability and improve sense of community.
\* Established a reputation for being an effective mentor to peer learners to solidify and improve understanding of challenging technical concepts.
\`\`\`
u/ElectricJacker89 wrote (the comment Michael replied to):
Hey all, I have been receiving death threats in my DMs. Feeling super uncomfortable so I am just going to delete this post.
u/michaelnovati replied · ★ FEATURED
That's absolutely aweful and appalling. Let me know if I can help in any way, I know a number of people who work at Reddit who might be able to help with reporting.
Anyone else reading this if you are participating in harassing OP, what the heck? You are all are adults and maybe this is wrong to say, but you should own up and apologize.